PBNs are dead!
Just kidding. This isn’t one of those posts.
But PBNs may actually be dead if you don’t know how to use them correctly.
Tell me this…
Have you noticed in the past year or two that expired domains aren’t packing the punch that they used to?
Well, I have news for you.
They actually are just as powerful as they’ve always been. You’ve just been using them wrong.
I perform a lot of testing and a good portion of these tests revolve around PBNs.
Some of these test results give me an unfair competitive advantage and I don’t easily reveal them to the public.
You’re about to learn one of my best kept secrets regarding how to properly use expired domains for PBNs.
A Bit of Background
For a few years, I had focused on auction and backorder domains for my PBN network.
Auction domains can be acquired on typical auction platforms (like GoDaddy Auctions) where you would bid against others for a domain that the owner has voluntarily put up for sale.
Backorders involve a similar auction process, but instead you’re bidding on a domain that is about to drop from someone’s account.
Maybe the previous owner forgot to pay their bill. Or maybe they’ve abandoned a particular business and no longer require the domain.
Auction and backorders don’t have a drop history and are thus desirable because they theoretically carry less of this PBN characteristic.
Prices Started to Soar
Ever since PBNs started to become a popular ranking tool, prices have risen on auction and backorder domains.
But in the last year especially, prices started to skyrocket as people were willing to pay more and more for auction and backorder domains.
This price increase prompted me to start exploring the realm of expired domains early last year.
Expired Domains
Expired domains are essentially domains that have dropped completely.
The owner let them go no one picked them up in the backorder process.
So for a period of time, they were orphans with no one to love them.
People find expired domains by various methods, such as scraping for broken links using tools like ScrapeBox.
While the rising costs of auction and backorder domains prompted me to start exploring expired domains, I didn’t jump straight in.
As any super-paranoid SEO geek, I had to test them out to make sure I knew how to use them properly.
With all this hearsay about expired domains not working like they used to, I suspected there was more to the story.
The Test
In order to properly test expired domains as PBNs, I wanted to mimic how the rest of the SEO community was using them.
A huge majority of grey hat SEOs are using expired domains as their main source of PBNs (see poll below). After interviewing many of them, I set out to emulate their practices.
PBN Criteria
Style
Of the 12 PBNs I used for this test, 6 of them were setup as WordPress installations with fresh content, and 6 of them were setup as Archive.org WayBack installations (read more about WordPress vs WayBack in my article about Next Generation PBNs).
Niches
I sourced expired domains that (in their former lives) had represented a broad selection of niches.
- Automotive
- Beauty
- Conventions
- Education
- Fashion
- Film
- Music
- Personal Blog
- Politics
- Recreation
- Society
- Technology
Metrics
I wanted to get a good spread of domains that covered the metrics that most SEOs have access to so I gathered expired domains with the following metrics:
- DA
- Range: 18-32
- Average: 22.3
- PA
- Range: 29-49
- Average: 33.0
- TF
- Range: 10-22
- Average: 15.5
- Referring Domains
- Range: 29-291
- Average: 69
Target Test Sites
In order to test whether or not these PBNs are doing their job, I would send links to test sites and monitor the ranking increases (or decreases).
Criteria Used for Target Sites
- Test site must not have received links in over 2 years
- Test site must be ranking for a keyword on page 1-4. Note: anything ranking on page 1-4 is in Google’s good graces (this is important).
- For the above keyword, no single part of this keyword’s anchor text has ever been sent to the URL.
For example, I often use target test sites like this…
JohnAndBonnieJackson.com (fictional) might have been a wedding registry page in 2014 and hasn’t received links in years. It ranks for “john and bonnie wedding registry” on page 3, but I require that it had never received anchor text with any of these words in it: “john”, “bonnie”, “wedding” nor “registry”.
At this point, I think we can all agree that if we were to send an exact match “John and Bonnie wedding registry” to this healthy domain, we are definitely going to see a ranking increase.
That is… if the PBN is good.
This entire process is outlined in my PBN testing methodology.
Experiment 1: The First Links are Placed
For the first test, I did exactly what a majority of the SEO industry does with their PBNs…
- Registered the expired domain
- Setup the PBN
- Linked to a money site straight away
Here are the results:
The nuances are hard to see, so let’s look at the raw data. I’ve gone ahead colored the data, making it easy to interpret.
- Green = ranking increase
- Orange = flat (+/- 1)
- Red = decreased rankings
At the end of 8 weeks…
- 4 of 12 testcases gave a flat ranking increase
- 8 of 12 testcases resulted in a negative ranking drop!
- Two of these testcases completely penalized the target URL!!
I’ll redraw the graph with the same coloration so you can clearly see the damage that was caused.
Somehow, by using these PBNs exactly as intended, they’ve turned out to be negative assets. These expired domains were essentially SEO liabilities.
At this point it became no surprise to me why the industry was claiming that expired domains were useless.
But at the same time, I had a strong hunch about what was going on…
Experiment 2: Let’s try this again
Going with my hunch, I wanted to run another test.
First I removed the links that were going to the first set of target test sites.
Then, I identified 12 more target test sites and simply sent them same PBNs to these new sites.
Here are the results, which started showing in just three weeks this time:
In data form:
- Green = ranking increase
- Orange = flat (+/- 1)
- Red = decreased rankings
Color coded graph:
These same PBNs, which were previously liabilities, have just turned around and created huge ranking increases in another test round. “PBN 3” brought a keyword from #43 to #8!
Someone explain what the heck is going on!
Analysis: There is a filter on expired domains used to weed out SEOs
Here is the key fact in understanding what has happened…
The only difference between “Experiment 1” and “Experiment 2” is time.
In Experiment 1, I setup the PBNs and linked out from them either the same day, or sometimes as long as a week.
With Experiment 2, nothing was changed except there was more time between when the expired domain was indexed and linked out from.
Apparently…
There is an algorithmic filter that will cause expired domains to cause penalties when linked from too soon after indexing.
But after a certain time threshold has passed, expired domains work perfectly fine.
What is that threshold?
The shortest data point that I’ve uncovered (so far) is 36 days.
You must wait at least 36 days between the time you index an expired domain and link out from it.
This whole time, the algo has exhibited a filter..
Is it specifically meant to target grey hat SEOs?
Perhaps yes and perhaps no.
Either way, the effect is felt. It manages to severely hurt grey hat SEOs by disrupting a common usage model.
In Closing…
I have a confession.
I’ve known this for at least a year.
Some things you need to keep to yourself simply because of the competitive advantage they offer.
As it turns out, expired domains still work very well. You just need to know how to use them properly.
Is this filter still in place? You betcha. Feel free to test it yourself.
Although, these days I see more variability on the threshold. Often I see domains become assets in less than 36 days.
My next hunch is that they might apply this same threshold to auction and backorders, and you can count on the fact that I’m currently running tests to catch it as soon as it’s in play.
Will I release the results to this study and other critical studies like this?
Be sure to subscribe to be kept in the loop.
Hi Matt,
I’m really thankful that you shared this with us. This means that if you test your PBNs, you have to wait at least 36 days between indexing and linking to the test site, as well..?
So it goes like this:
PBN basic setup -> wait period of 36+ days -> place link to test site -> if rankings increased, add to your PBN
How do you determine how long you have to wait? If I test one of my PBNs and the test site rankings decrease, it could mean 2 things: A) link juice was toxic, or B) it was still in “Expired Domain Sandbox”…
and btw, do you let your newly aquired domains index naturally or do you force by pinging etc.? If you force it, how do you do it? Video Sitemap?
Correct.
I wait 36 days because up until now, this is what the data has told me that I should wait for. This might change going forward.
Hi Matt,
It this also true for 301’s ? Or can you redirect as soon as you register it?
Sounds like a great idea for a test. (Sorry but I dont comment on anything I dont have test experience with.)
Yes it works.
I tested myself.
I redirected an expired domain on the same day I registered it (scrapped by myself from expireddomains.net).
It gave my new site (6 months old) a huge boost as well as increase in DA and PA.
Wow, this is amazing! This might explain all the current confusion about expired domains. Thank you, Matt! 🙂
Hey Matt,
Did you penalized domains recover after you removed the respective links?
Not before I gave up on them.
So I suppose expired domains that previously failed the PBN testing phase, could be re-tested (now that they’ve aged) to determine whether they are really a toxic domain or were just tested to quickly.
That’s what the second round is.
That’s a very interesting test, Matt. Thanks!
I’ve a (newbie?) question…how do you ‘index’ the expired domain?
Cheers
http://diggitymarketing.com/quick-indexing-with-this-simple-trick/
Thank you. Can I ask you if this filter is actually active of domain bought through auction/backorder as well?
They face a long time with no content as well…
Thank you
Good question. 🙂
Unreal and truly shows the power is in testing!
How many people must of lost faith when they linked out and lost rankings. This must of thought PBN’s were dead!
Great piece Matt
Awesome information man!
Wow! Droping bombs!
So the same PBN that hurted rankings in the first test, was improving rankings in the second test?
So the PBN domain doesnt get penalized for linking out before 36 days.. only the target site?
Thats crazy!
great information Matt! thanks for helping all us out!
Correct.
Interesting stuff Matt. The key is to remove the original links you created (within days of setting up PBN) and then you can add new ones?
The key is to wait before you actually link to the intended site.
Great experiment! I have always waited 2 weeks before OBL to my money sites in my PBN, but after reading this I will wait longer. What are your thoughts on OBL to authority sites right out the gate?
What I do is, recreate the PBN “similar” but not the same, then immediately OBL to authority sites in various articles on the PBN. Then 2 weeks later I create a new article with my money site link.
It sounds like the PBN is not affected, just the juice it passes, right? So I would assume it would be okay to OBL to my authority sites within the beginning 30 day period. Then, after 30 days, OBL to my money sites. Right?
Thanks for doing these tests, I’m too overwhelmed to do them myself lol.
In my experience, buffering with an authority OBL doesn’t help this case.
Another awesome post Matt! I could not make it to the LCT conference, so was eagerly waiting for you to publish this post. Looking forward to more of these.
If your sites appear have been affected by this. What do you think is the safest way to resolve the issue?
Remove the links? Remove the entire article? If so, remove ASAP or wait a month?
In my humble opinion: wait for a month then remove.
Matt never fails to surprise! Extremely helpful piece of test you put together here man!
WOW thanks for sharing Matt. I was just wondering if the sites you sent the pbn links to where in the same niche.
They weren’t.
So the moment of truth… Are only the links posted within the first 36 days toxic liabilities, or now are all links toxic from this site?
As shown in round 2 of the test, the PBNs are no longer toxic.
So does this mean that PBNs that start to link out to money sites too early will have a negative effect on rankings forever or does this mean that there has been added an extra ranking delay for around 36 days like the google random document patent?
Have you tested what happens to the money site if PBNs are used for tier 2?
As the graphs show, there’s a negative effect. And yes, I’ve tested tier 2 PBN links.
Oh sh*t, just when I started taking advatage of this hack… Matt buddy you should start charging for this stuff, you’re literally giving out gold nuggets. Enjoy Vegas my friend!
Hi Matt! Nice study… well done!
First of all, i confess i’m one of the guys that are in the marjority SEO’s that were doing this with my expired domains. I usually wait 1 week to post a link out to a money site. Till now. 😉
A couple of related questions:
1- i have some expired domains that has 3 or 4 articles linking to a money site. All these domains and it’s article pages are indexed already. BUT the google search console from the money sites does not recognizes the links, even 2 months after posting them! Have you seem this before? If yes, what to do?
2- Do you think is there a relation between your study and my question 1? I’m asking this because in these specific domains i created the articles a couple of days after indexing the domain and published all articles in the same day (pointing to different money sites each one).
Thanks for the support and hope you can answer my questions 🙂
My kind regards,
1) Don’t rely on this incomplete resource for backlink checking. Rely on yourself: http://diggitymarketing.com/how-to-properly-track-your-backlinks/
2) Nope, I dont.
Hi Matt!
I have around 10 expired domains and at least 5 of them i did this mistake on the beginning, by linking out too soon… Do you think i should remove these links? Some of them has been indexed 2 ro 3 months ago… Thanks!
If your site is ranking ok, just leave them and practice your due dilligence going forward.
This case study is insane. Explains everything.
What sets the start day?
Date of registration or first post indexed?
For me: indexing date.
Matt, thanks so much. I was so weary of using expired domains for the longest time due to what I was reading out in the SEO channels. I’ll confidently move forward and test some new expired domains and see how it goes for my own sites. Like you said…test, test and then test some more!
Thanks again, the service you provide is so valuable and extremely appreciated!
This is actually very beneficial. Once more Google weeds out the people that are just ‘into SEO’ to make some quick money online. Measures like these will certainly benefit the SEO’s that are in it for the long haul.
And all this time I was wondering why my PBN’s sometimes tanked my pages… Should have done some more testing I guess haha. Thanks for the awesome advice! This is some real value Matt! 🙂
Make sense! 🙂
I’m going to follow this advice. Thanks a lot matt
Wow. No wonder. Thanks for saving me time and money
Awesome share Matt.
Fuck yeah! Solid stuff man. Really goes to show that if you’re not testing in SEO you’re just shooting in the dark. I have a few questions for you that I would highly appreciate if you could answer.
1. Hmm, so you would obviously wait 40 days before you test the expired domain against your PBN testing SOP/ Methodology (to see if the domain is a keeper)?
2. I see you conducted this case study once. Have you replicated it more times to confirm that this is actually 100% true?
3. Do you scrape yourself or buy from a broker/partner?
4. Do you show full posts on the homepage of all your PBN’s, or do you also show an excerpt on some of them? (Since 100% of all backlinks to a site coming from the homepage is unnatural and is only something that an SEO would do)?
Way to go man!
1) Yes
2) Yes
3) Myself
4) That’s IP. 🙂
Hi Matt,
Did that first batch recover over time or did those links stay toxic? I’m thinking I might have to remove some links that I’ve put up the wrong way and wait the time and then repost.
Thanks
Those keywords didn’t recover after an additional month. I gave up after that.
Hey Eric, hey Matt,
they do recover after 2-3 month to the same point.
But there is no improvement, so they are useless…
I made this experience on over 40 PBN’s in the last 6 months…
Thank you Matt, these findings change everything!
Matt, thank you for this case study..
I Just buying a bunch of expired domains to add to my PBN, this case study will help me a lot !
Dude. This is awesome. Great work.
Once it’s indexed, what are you doing with the wordpress pbns? Building filler articles? Or are they just sitting there for the time being?
Thanks Matt!
I built them out and put them on ice.
Great, great info as always Matt…
Do you think this would also come into play when a domain is re-branded/re-purposed even though it’s already been indexed?
These sorts of ideas are great for your own testing.
So the new negative SEO tactic would be buy a bunch of expired domains and point them at your competitor. haha.
Please don’t be that guy.
LMAO. This one is SUPPPPEEER worth reading. Nice one.
You are right Matt! I just experienced this.. So do you remove the link to fix this penalty?
Definitely.
Hi Matt – great info thanks for your easy description and good work.
I have a question please.
did you notice any statistically significant difference between the wayback sites and the fresh WordPress sites? Regards
Hey Mark, the results are in the case study.
Great Work!!! And nice case study. What I learnt here is should wait for more than 36 days to link our money site. Same way goes to web 2.0 expired domains?
Good idea for a test concept.
nice one matt
Hey Matt! Great articles, I have a question though:
If the expired PBN is Working right away meaning positive ranking increase – do you still wait till you Link out to your Moneysite? And as for testing do you wait before you test them aswell?
Thank you!
What’s your thoughts?
Shouldn’t have removed the first links, or at least only half of them, would be interesting to see how it goes later.
What happened to the sites when you removed the links?
Other than that, good stuff.
No recovery after a month.
Interesting stuff Matt. Would this work on a PBN site I registered a year ago (where I adding outgoing links instantly) If I removed all those links, waited for the site to be indexed again with no OBLs then added a test link?
Sorry, but I don’t answer anything I dont have any data for.
Hi Matt,
If we have already some pbns aged(for example 2 years ago) and we had put the link quite immediately after we build the pbn, what you suggest to do?
Maybe add some posts without any link?
You’re going to have to test this. I don’t have 2 year old data on this.
HI Matt,
As usually very useful post.
Can you tell if you prefer to install new WordPress on expired/auction domain or restore previous wayback html?
Thanks in advance.
WordPress in most cases.
Hey Mat. Very interesting observations.
Im curious about links from PBNs, you did them somewhere middle in the text ?
That’s right.
Amazing that you’re sharing this info!
If I’m using PBN to link to multiple money sites, if some links are placed before 36 days and some after, is PBN still “affected” and no link will perform at its best, because im having mixed results?
Thanks
Sorry, I don’t understand the question.
Example: 1 PBN links to 2 money sites, 1 link before 36 days, 1 after.
Is the second link going to work fine, even if the first link is still live and published
Hey Matt,
Sorry for the newb questions – Say I win a GoDaddy auction which already ranks highly for some keywords (not related to my niche). Do I just change the WHOIS and NS or don’t even worry about that? And do I keep the GoDaddy parked page up or direct it to my site which has no content and keep it from being indexed til day 36.
I’m going to direct you to Daryl’s PBN guide for that: http://lionzeal.com/pbn-guide/
Nice post Matt! It’s a very common thing to hear people in the SEO community say that expired domains no longer work, until now, and you’ve included evidence of there effectiveness. As an SEO I’ve always tried my best to stay away from expired domains but maybe I’ll start to dabble in them now, or use them for other purposes (not waiting the 36 days before linking). Overall great post and I look forward to seeing if you release and data on auction domain waiting time and if you find any correlation, I wouldn’t blame you if you kept that to yourself though.
It is definitely coming to auction.
In fact, some auction domains are already behaving similarly during testing phase.
From my experience, what helps in reducing this time frame is publishing a few pieces of content without links in a row, prior to the one with links.
Great stuff. Question and forgive me if the answer is in one of the comments.
Is the penalty/filter applied therein forever? IE. I link to a site immediately and it there’s no juice based upon your study. What if, 45 days later you add another link out after some added content and social signals. Does the penalty remain on all outgoing forever due to the immediate link out?
Thanks,
Ken
Round 2 of my testing in this article shows that you can use the same PBNs later as assets.
If I have set up a few domains badly according to this study… Can I use these domains after 36 days for another moneysite?
Do you have tested the PBN from the 1st test for another moneysite after the 36 day period?
All the best
Patrick
Yes, that is what I’ve done in this case study.
Great experimentation Matt! However, aren’t the backorder (dropping) domains similar to expired domains in terms of their registration dates? They will show fresh registration dates instead of continue the age as per auctions domains.
They don’t seem to behave that way as of now.
Bomb.
Dropped.
Awesome share Matt. Explains a recent drop I saw on from a single PBN link that I got a bit hasty adding… link now removed, recovery in play – any idea of adding the same link to same money site again after 36+ days of indexing would get a positive result?
You’re definitely free to try.
Thanks Matt,
So What you are saying is:
Within the first 36 days send a link to your competitor’s page, then
after 36 days send links to your money page.
Looks like a win/win – plus it will look more natural
I don’t condone negative SEO.
Hey Matt,
Great post – thanks a ton for the insight. What about linking out to authority? I’m a rather new marketer, and was taught to link out to wikipedia or youtube to index. Does the same rule apply to that, or just your money site?
I’m only tracking test sites.
Great stuff Matt. I am regularly surprised by how much people under estimate Google and their ranking algorithms and this confirms it. You assume Google is made up of smart people, so you think like them. If a smart person worked for Google, wouldn’t they find it obvious that buying a domain to point it to a site is a giveaway?
That said, now the ‘cat is out of the bag’ and you’ve made this public, hope some smarty at Google isn’t now thinking of how to catch people waiting 36 days now to build a link! 🙂
Hi matt, thanks for sharing this gold.
I have a question about your test result.
Did you link the pbn’s with a full home page blog post or with homepage excerpt?
Full post on the WordPress blogs.
actually this is the game changing tip because when the site drops ranking after pointing pbns then the thing that comes in your mind is pbn sucks and google is targeting pbn’s instead of m i doing something wrong? lol now i found what i have done wrong. thanks for such a great case study. waiting for more.
HI Matt
What if i already placed links on expired domain within the 1 week and my ranking dropped. Do i need to remove the links or need to wait more weeks to see ranking increase?
Remove the links and use the PBN for another site.
What if i want to use the pbn for the same money site after a month or more? Does it cause any effect?
Doesn’t hurt to try.
I’m also following the same strategy for more than a year. We’re smart, Matt 😛
Is it necessary to add my PBN’s in Google Webmaster or Let them Index by Add Url?
What about Web 2.0 also? Will I have to Add that in Webmaster? Totally confused in this part!
Check out my guide here.
Hey Matt, First of Thank you you’re giving us very helpful data.
Second: i found EMD Expired domains da 30 and pa 36 and spam score was 0, so i host it and get content via Wayback machine. I verified that emd domain in GWM . after 1 week I got queries so i redirected my emd domain to my money site . and yes link juice passed to my money site (I checked it via ahrefs) .
Now I have 5 domains emd and pmd so what you say about it how should I utilize them. i should redirect them simply after queries in WMD . or Use them proper pbn (where I can do 2 or 3 posts and link my money site with them) waiting for your suggestion thank you 🙂
This is a strategy question and it depends on what your own personal goals are with ranking speed, risk, etc.
How you like this tactic to “recover” the juice?
1) Remove the links from pbn posts (not the post, only the links to the money site)
2) Wait 30-40 days
3) In the mean time add some content without links
4) Post new fresh post with links to moneysite
You’ll have to try this out.
really nice job explaining the expired domains. I have 70 that I pulled all the links from and now they are parked. Using just auction now but will put your stuff to test again
Do you think your study also applies to 301 domain-redirects?
Greetz
Those test sites were relevant to the expired domain niche?
No, they weren’t.
I’m sadly a sinner of creating a 500 sized PBN network and not testing my PBNS enough + not waiting the 40 day wait time before linking out. I’m currently doing a massive cleanup in everything and testing all my PBNS.
But I don’t know if I should remove all PBN links (lots of them), and start from scratch to make sure that they are all posted after the domain has an “index date” of at least 40 days?
I’m considering starting from scratch, but then again. Removing so many PBN links is not normal. Then again, it’s also shitty if I have some PBN links keeping me down. Hmm…
What would you do if you were me, Matt?
Terrible situation to be in here man, but thanks for having your article shred some light on this man! Right when I needed it. I’m on my way to recovery.
I’d just start using due dilligence going forward. Who knows? Maybe this filter wears off after additional months.
Matt, do you think domains from auctions works fine since first days or not?
Definitely something you want to test.
thank you, Matt, to sharing with us this information about PBN.
I have questions, please.
1 – What you have to do if you did it this thing (link your money sites in the first day after publishing it)and you lost you ranking now?
2 – I need to wait 36 days for every article or just the first article in my PBN.
Achraf, Cheers.
1) Give it some time and remove the link.
2) Just the first.
Thank you for your inquiry.
Did I understand you correctly? Now there is no such thing as “toxic links”? And you just need to wait 36 days before putting a link to the money site?
Or do you need to wait 36 days after which to conduct tests for toxic links? Could you clarify. Thank you in advance.
You can conduct tests any time you like, but if you do it before 36 days on expired domains, then you’re almost guaranteed to get a bad result whether or not the domain is toxic.
Hi Matt,
36 days you say…
It would be nice to see server logs when the google came back for re-indexing, I guess that could be the trigger for them to say: “OK, site seems legit, lets remove any sandboxing and allow them to become a full member of the society”
It all comes down to google crawls anyway, right? so by having access to the logs on when this happens, you can have a proper system in place to tell when you can start linking out…
just a thought.
I always wait at least 3 months before linking out from expired domains. It seems obvious to me that expired domains are easy to spot if just set up and immediately linking out. I also add regular content to the PBNs throughout this period. Needs to look natural.
Many thanks for such valuable test.
I have few questions:
1. How many articles were posted on your pbn sites in test on average?
2. When did you run this test, because I’ve noticed some bad things with pbns in March-April only?
3. Are test moneysites from test 1 recovered or still on lower places for tested keywords?
Thanks in advance.
1) 3-5
2) I run it all the time
3) I gave up on them
Many thanks for your reply, Matt.
According 2nd question, I mean have you noticed ranking drops after linking from fresh expired domain few months ago, or just the last few months? Because I’ve had good results few months ago and bad results from pbns made in March-April only.
I ran this test in January 2016 and have been linking this way ever since. I haven’t noticed any bad results since then, save for the odd domain that fails the test and I throw away.
Hello Matt,
Thanks for sharing you very useful case studies!
I just ask you about WayBack. If installed WordPress and then use WayBack old articles on fresh wordpress and after 36 days post new original article and linked to money site with exact match anchor. It will help me ranking increased?
Is it good to use wayback content ?
Thanks!
Sounds like a good test to try out.
Hi Matt,
Wow.
Thank you for choosing to share this information with us. That’s incredibly helpful and generous of you.
You mentioned that auction and backorder domains don’t have a drop history. Are auction and backorder domains treated differently to expired domains when it comes to the waiting period?
Currently resesting these as we speak.
Hey Matt,
Have the results of this test come in yet? Curious if we need to wait for auction domains to come out of the same sandbox.
Inconclusive so far.
Hey Matt,
awesome share! Thanks a lot!
What I wonder is, when you did that mistake like in your test one, would you remove the article from the PBN, wait for a few weeks and then repost it? Or is it like -> that PBN is toxic forever for that money site? No more links to the same money site from that PBN ever again?
The sites you linked to in part 1 of the test clearly dropped in rankings. After taking the links away from them, did their rankings bounce back or did the rankings stay damaged?
Trying to gauge how much effect taking down pbn links that went up too soon after pbn indexation, will have.
As mentioned in the comments earlier, I gave up on the test sites and stopped tracking them. In hindsight it would have been useful to know. Alas, I didn’t track them.
Hey Matt,
One question I forgot to ask you is in this test, how many pages did your PBN have before you linked out to your money site?
8-10 or so.
Seriously good case study, thanks, Matt.
Let’s say you have an expired domain that’s parked, and no site built out, but the parked domain is indexed in Google.
Let’s say the parked domain has been indexed for 3 months after re registering.
Would this domain be safe and effective to link out from immediately after building a site in it?
I haven’t tested if “parked” status counts the timer.
Hello, Matt.
Please, clear out how many articles do you think a pbn site should have before linking to moneysite, as you’ve said 3-5 articles in one comment and 8-10 in another.
Thank you.
It doesn’t really matter. I also link out from one page sites sometimes when I build waybacks. Just keep it varied.
hi, i just picking up domain with 4 registar with 4 drop, the TF / CF 20+ DA/PA 20+ , domain was very old 10years+ , that’s ok if i use that domain as money site?
correction : *want to buy the domain 😀
There’s probably a dozen other facts your want to consider outside the few you mentioned. Sorry, but there’s not enough information.
Matt, how do you scrape or scan expired domains?
Manually? or tools?
If manual, care to share methodology. If tools, which?
Thanks
I use brokers.
Could you clarify the next point.
I tested pbn, now I want to put a link to my money site.
I need to just delete the old link and replace it with a new one (without adding additional text)? Or can I completely replace all the text on this page and add a new link to the money site?
I haven’t tested this so I don’t really have an answer for you.
great post – thank you for sharing –
If I have already linked to my money site( and you got negative impact) – would you recommend
1.deleting that post and creating a new post after waiting the 36 days or
2.delete the whole PBN and wait to get de-indexed and start from scratch?
I haven’t run any tests on how to recover from prematurely sent expired domain links.
Sounds like a good idea for a future test. I know I’m not the only one who’s curious about this.
If you remove the anchor and persuade google to re-cache the post via your handy XML trick; your site will recover from the negative effects (mine has).
I’m now testing these untested PBN sites against competitors, then back to my site – if they prove themselves. If still no good, they’ll should be ok for other revenue sites. As you said to Charles, you just need give Goolge time to figure out what the new site is about.
Good stuff. Thanks for your contribution.
Nigel did the test work??
I was able to purchase my first expired domain on Go Daddy. Thank you for the tips!
Thank you! Top notch information and testing as always, Matt. I really appreciate you sharing this valuable information with the SEO community.
Just a quick question for you. When you added your links, did you add the anchors to pre-existing indexed articles on the site, or did you post up a new article with the link in it?
A new article.
Hi, Matt. Do you redirect 404s to homepage or internal pages for your PBNs? Or leave it just as it is?
Definitely not.
Dont you think it’s wasting link juice?
This is a much safer and more effective option for link juice reclamation on inner pages: http://diggitymarketing.com/topically-relevant-pbns/
Do you redirect the inner page to a new created inner page? If the old url includes .html, you can´t create the same page with wordpress.
You can with a plugin.
Deleted domains the same?
I consider them the same category.
Great test, definitely will test on my site:)
Hey Matt, nice article!
Does this apply to auction domains as well? I mean, do you wait a certain amount of time before linking out with auction (non dropped) domains?
Also, how many pages do you usually create on a new PBN before linking out to money site?
I believe this has been answered above.
The shortest data point that I’ve uncovered (so far) is 36 days – Matt, may I ask what is the longest data point discovered from your studies?
I simply haven’t run any test sets that try to lower this down. For me, 36 days just adds to a pipeline of PBN production. It doesn’t affect throughput.
Hi Matt!
After reading this post i did some tests in some of my expired domains i have… and for my surprise some of them were not helping to rank better. It was the opposite… by the end of 4 weeks, the result was a hurt on the rankings..
So, How should i deal with the links i had already created to other money sites?
A) Disavow the expired domain on the GSC of each linked site?
B) Delete all the posts created that had links pointing to the money sites?
C) Delete only the links and keep the post?
D) ALL together?
Thanks Man!!!
I’d probably just un-host the PBNs.
Ok, great! Thanks buddy !!
What do you mean by un-host??
Take the site down.
Great Advance updates for PBN and fast raking . thanks
Hi Matt
Wonderful research done! I still have a few questions.
1. Does the “early link out” penalty apply if the domain is already indexed at the time of registration. I often come across expired domains that died long back, but are still indexed. With such a domain is it fine to link out early, like within 1-2 weeks after setting up fresh content ?
2. Does the “early link out” penalty spare a site if it is linking out using branded or url anchors ? Could it be possible that the penalty applies only when a commercial/exact match anchor is used to link out to a low trust site. What did you see in your research.
3. So if I setup wordpress on an expired domain and restore content from wayback machine, is it fine to put the links that were present on the site earlier ?
Or should those links be also held back during the 36 day wait period.
4. Did you stretch the penalty test case to see if the dip in ranking fades away over time like sandbox, and the site eventually gains some ranking after few months ?
Like the random document algorithm. Just guessing!
1) No idea. You should test it.
2) No idea. You should test it.
3) Doesn’t matter as these links aren’t going to your money site.
4) Yes. Never improved.
Hi Matt,
I need Domain Hunting For PBN Training . I wanna Build my Own PBN network For my Client site. can you tell you are offering Domain Hunting training ?
Sorry… no I don’t offer this.
I highly doubt this “penalty time”.
You’re definitely free to test it.
Hi Matt,
Amazing site, full of information, keep going.
One quick question. Let’s say I published 4 articles on home page, but no one of them is indexed yet, but home page is. So, before I will put PBN link into my article, I have to wait until articles will be indexed separately and then wait 36 days or its enough to have indexed home page?
Many Thanks.
Not sure, man. You’re over thinking it.
Finally some data and not just guessing, thanks for this 😉
You’ve come to the right place if you like data over theory.
Surely some well established sites must get linked to from other peoples very young blogs as they attempt to appear legit by linking to authority sites. How come those sites don’t disappear from top serp results?
Because they’re well established sites.
Ok so I’ve decided to go with auction pbns as i want to speed things up. What exactly is age in Google’s eyes? Is it when it says 0 drops on domaintools.com?
Because the creation/updated dates don’t show when it expired last.
Only Google truly knows what Google thinks is age.
This could be said about everything we presume to be true, but there is a lot of testing to back up theories, can you tell me what your testing backs up?
I typically don’t answer questions I don’t have a strong grasp on the answer.
Matt,
Thank you for sharing this with us, I had just recently started SEO again and this helped tremendously.
I’ve noticed ranking delays are a lot longer now than they were in the past. Any idea on the ranking timeline for a small competition niche? I’m doing mostly clickbank ‘sniper’ EMD type of sites.
Those kind of questions never have answers unless I’ve actually done you niche before. And then again, your PBNs are different than mine so my quote would be useless for you. 🙂
Just making sure i follow your test properly.
Would i buy say 10 good expired domains and just let them sit at the registrar for 36 days or so, then when the time is up, host them, install WP and link to my MS?
Thanks
Paul
Index them and then the timer starts.
Thanks Matt
So you dont host them?…just buy them and get them indexed?
Hard to index something without it being live.
Matt,
I was watching a video interview you and referenced Terry Kyle’s RRF.
Regarding that: The troubled sites that show the least movement in testing, are those sites destined to fail, meaning they will never reach page 1? Or is it more-so, they need a little bit of extra ‘love’ and or time to get there?
Thank you!
I had a chat with Terry about it. He mentioned that in the worst cases RRF will wear off in 6 months.
Great info! Thank you for that.
That may clear up a few things for me on some sites in question.
You are on of the few SEOers (that does well) that actually takes the time to reply and give great information to people. Myself and many others do appreciate it.
Appreciate it.
Hi Matt,
Great article! Have a couple of questions for you:
1) Do you think there is a similar algo filter applied to expired domains being used as money sites? As in restore an expired domain through wayback (once it’s moved to page 1, then create a new wp site) – but don’t link to it for 40 days?
2) Doing a wayback restore and changing only title tag and h1 – do you think that is toxic or is your hunch that it’s primarily a matter of time? From your testing and experience, does it seem like google’s algo filters are primarily time-based or also type-of-change based?
Thanks,
Mike
1) I don’t use expired domains for money sites so I’ve never tested them.
2) That’s something I won’t share at this point.
Hey Matt, thanks for this awesome informations. I thought about this long time ago and I absolutely confirm your results. But I still dont understand how this negative impact can happen. Can google really be so naive to make “negative seo” such easy?
And you replied on many comments to wait until the expired domain is indexed before starting the 36 days. What do you think about the relevancy of the indexed topic? Are the 36 days still counting even If the domain is indexed with “Another WordPress page” or is it important to index first with relevancy? Thanks again, I hope you can find time to answer 🙂
Some people have been using this for negative SEO.
About your relevance question, yes, it matters… but its a different subject entirely.
Hi Matt,
I purchased a domain from auctions, and I am seeing a negative result after linking. Maybe it’s the random documents algorithm, or maybe it’s anchor text.
However, I did not host the domain immediately upon it transferring to my account, and it was no longer indexed by the time I got around to it (it did reindex within a few hours of hosting).
Would you be inclined to think Google may perceive this as an expired domain, given the short period of drop?
Thank you,
Not sure what Google thinks.
Makes sense. Thanks for getting back to me.
Hi Matt, quick question. If my Pbn’s are linking to multiple money sites, (one before the 36 day period and one after the 36 day grace period) are both links considered toxic ? It’s been a wild ride this whole year.
Thanks for taking the time to share your findings and tips.
No.
Will it be good to use expired domain as main money site?
Definitely not reliable anymore.
Hi Matt, do you have any pbn providers you would recommend using until your service becomes open again? Thank You
As per my terms of service, you can’t use my links if you’re using another network.
Thank you Matt, seeing thorough and real world testing is always refreshing. After all the negative press on expireds, I started to think there must be more to it than the they’re good/they’re bad! debate. Back before I knew any better or even what a PBN was, I ranked target money sites simply by using websites I already owned that had some age but no real metrics or links, yet the creation of content and links from anywhere not penalized contributed to the rise of the target keywords.
Have you tested 301 redirecting expired domains to existing PBNs?
No, I haven’t.
Hey Matt, I already posted a similar comment, but I don’t know if it went through. If a PBN test link moves a site from the top of page three to the bottom of page one for a day, then it drops back down to page two and settles around position 17 or 18 and stays there, is that considered successful or is it too little of a bump to consider the PBN an asset? It’s 3-4 spots, but I am new to testing these links myself and just looking for clarification. When it jumped to the bottom of page one I was ecstatic, but the drop back was a bit of a buzzkill. Thanks!
Sounds like there was ultimately a positive effect so I’d consider that a win.
Matt- That’s a Great case study. I’ve been working towards domain selection for my own pbn as of lately.
This study has definitely brought light to what could be considered a protocol for time lines and benchmarks when setting things up.
Very valuable! Thanks for taking the time to perform the study and publish your findings.
My pleasure.